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Commercial ammo in garands test results.

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airground

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Been working on this for a couple years now.

Finally got my ballistician to do a comment about our testing various different milsurp and commercial ammo in/for the garand to disprove the longstanding M2 ball only myth.

His comments are below...

Let's not forget this is in a properly greased rifle and an oprod spring at least 19.5" long
-------
Ken Johnson
Shooters World Propellants
Prospector Training, LLC


I....have been meaning to write a book about this. From my earliest days of being a DCM shooter of M1 Garands on the weekends, to being mentored by old Marines, to being an AMU shooter, to working in Technical Services and Research and Development at St. Marks Powder.....to eventually owning and operating my own internal ballistics laboratory....I have heard of the "theory" of the bent-op rod in the M-1 Garand.

...in the early 2000's, I befriended OLD engineers from Rock Island, Winchester, CCI, and other government and industry locations. NONE of them could confirm "the theory". NONE of them had ever SEEN a bent op-rod. Despite all the parroting, the claims, the "assurances" from crusty old M-1 Garand shooters....even the oft quoted "This ammo is MADE for the M-1 Garand".....

So, being in the position of owning a SAAMI member laboratory, and having every means to run a thorough test....I did.

There are a LOT of nuances involved in ballistic testing. And honestly, if you REALLY want to challenge me on knowledge....bring your lunch. So, I'm not going to get into the "50,000 psi discussion". You quote that in an argument, and you clearly are an arm-chair Ballistician, without modern day knowledge. Study up.

Just a few Cliff notes, before I do the data-dump: I made a "blue pill" load, that approximated the current "Maximum Probable Sample Mean" for 30-06 Springfield SAAMI ammunition. This is the HIGHEST "production" pressure, as statistically suggested within SAAMI documentation for piezo transducer testing. That pressure (MPSM) is 63,800 psi. Note: Max Average Pressure (MAP) for 30-06 Springfield is listed at 60,000 psi Piezo...The intent of this portion of the exercise was to attempt to maximize PORT pressure, while keeping CHAMBER pressure within the realm of "safe limits". Surely, all would agree that IF chamber pressure were pushed FAR above "normal limits"....any damned fool could break a gun, in any number of places.

Back to the maximization of PORT pressures, just to drive the point home: The intent was to find ANY combination of projectile and propellant that would MAXIMIZE port pressure, while keeping inside "reasonably safe" SAAMI chamber pressures. Some would believe it would be "heavy bullet"....and some would believe it would be "slow powder". Well....I ran that experiment for days...turns out a little 130 grain bullet, with 70 (SEVENTY) grains of a fairly slow propellant DID maximize port pressure. Higher than any heavy bullet did....

A formal test barrel was fabricated by SATERN barrels, conforming to the min-spec dimensions of a 30-06 government test barrel chamber, bore cross-section, and port location from the muzzle. While not a "SAAMI" test barrel (but rather conforming to government drawings), it met the intent of the program. Using this test barrel, I created the "blue pill"....and tested ALL ammunition lots of both government and commercial 30-06 ammunition.

Surely some here will reference a group of gentlemen who DID instrument a true M-1 Garand with a piezo transducer TO THE GAS PORT CYLINDER of an M-1 Garand. And...they reported pressure results. Mmmmmyep. Good for them. I did that too. But I did not report those numbers, as there is NO standardized method or equipment to test/capture those numbers. Suffice it to say, that when taking into account PV=nRT, any VARIANCE IN VOLUME of the cylinder will drastically affect the recorded pressure output. Thus, the gas-port cylinder test is inherently flawed, when compared to standard industry methods. MY pressure output numbers utilized industry-standard methods, whereby the pressure is read DIRECTLY at the location of the port (as-per EPVAT modern day methodology), with no associated "free volume" to dampen the output results.

An M-1 Garand rifle was purchased from CMP, with both a "service" grade barrel, as well as a new Criterion barrel...several trigger groups, several op-rods...all with the intent to destroy this firearm by shooting the "blue pill" through it repeatedly.

Findings:

Folks have claimed (totally incorrectly) that heavy bullets....or slow powders....or SAAMI MAP pressures....will doom your M-1 Garand to certain destruction. Folks- I have passed my results to other SAAMI member laboratories, and major ammunition manufacturers. All of them have told me that they've never witnessed ANYONE ELSE, EVER test this system so exhaustively.

The "Blue Pill" load did NOT destroy any part of the M-1 Garand. I've fired in excess of 200 "Blue Pill" rounds through it (along with every other type of commercial and government ammunition), and there remains NO sign of fatigue, or of failure to feed/fire/extract. I have also fired hundreds of rounds of 200+ grain projectiles through this rifle. NO PROBLEM, if the load is kept to SAAMI pressures.

The M-1 Garand is a ROBUST firearm design, able to digest standard SAAMI modern-day ammunition, of any make, and any components, when loaded to SAAMI standard pressures.

I have long offered a bounty for a bent or broken op-rod. I NEED to examine one...but no-one has ever EVER claimed to have had one. The constraints: It must have bent or broken with a load that conforms to SAAMI chamber pressures. The op-rod must be of original non-altered condition (before it was bent). If a hand-load, I must be provided the reloading recipe.

Despite my better judgement, the attachment provides EVERYONE my raw data, proving the extent of the testing across the ocean of time, disparity of manufacturers, and methods of pressure generation. Everything herein is fired out of the pressure barrel, using modern day piezo electric transducers of industry standard, filtered low-pass Bessel active at 20kHz, the transducers and charge amps all calibrated with a dead-weight tested.

UPDATE #1
(From Ken)
Folks- PowderMonkey here again (Ken Johnson of Prospector Training, LLC). We found the attached results sheet containing more data than before. I attach it here, for historical perusal. Should anyone wish to use this information for commercial purposes, I ask (kindly) that they contribute to making me whole. I may be found on the internet, or in Crawfordville, FL.

Jeremy Cheek and I performed this testing at the laboratory. We utilized many of his M1 and M2 lots, dating all the way back to...1927! He freely donated this ammunition, so that others might be able to better understand the TRUTH of the M1 Garand, ammunition loaded and certified for the weapon (over many years), as well as modern day alternatives.

Link to raw data.

 
Last edited:

airground

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UPDATE #1
(From Ken)
Folks- PowderMonkey here again (Ken Johnson of Prospector Training, LLC). We found the attached results sheet containing more data than before. I attach it here, for historical perusal. Should anyone wish to use this information for commercial purposes, I ask (kindly) that they contribute to making me whole. I may be found on the internet, or in Crawfordville, FL.

Jeremy Cheek and I performed this testing at the laboratory. We utilized many of his M1 and M2 lots, dating all the way back to...1927! He freely donated this ammunition, so that others might be able to better understand the TRUTH of the M1 Garand, ammunition loaded and certified for the weapon (over many years), as well as modern day alternatives.

Link to raw data.

 

V guy

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Not this Garand op rod shit again......................"My Ballistician"

Who has a balistician on retainer?

Ass still on fire eh?

General Hatcher and Hornady/Winchester/Privi ballisticians.MUST BE FOOLS???...... They tested and developed Garand ammo for a reason....... as they sell Garand specific ammo.


46 DIFFERENT '06 ROUNDS WERE PRODUCED FOR GOV'T USE, PLUS MODERN AMMO.

SEND THEM YOUR "BALLSY'S ADRESS.

Flat earth bs...................use a schuster gas plug.

Bans were handed out before.
 
Last edited:

ftierson

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Been working on this for a couple years now.

Finally got my ballistician to do a comment about our testing various different milsurp and commercial ammo in/for the garand to disprove the longstanding M2 ball only myth.

His comments are below...

Let's not forget this is in a properly greased rifle and an oprod spring at least 19.5" long
-------
Ken Johnson
Shooters World Propellants
Prospector Training, LLC


I....have been meaning to write a book about this. From my earliest days of being a DCM shooter of M1 Garands on the weekends, to being mentored by old Marines, to being an AMU shooter, to working in Technical Services and Research and Development at St. Marks Powder.....to eventually owning and operating my own internal ballistics laboratory....I have heard of the "theory" of the bent-op rod in the M-1 Garand.

...in the early 2000's, I befriended OLD engineers from Rock Island, Winchester, CCI, and other government and industry locations. NONE of them could confirm "the theory". NONE of them had ever SEEN a bent op-rod. Despite all the parroting, the claims, the "assurances" from crusty old M-1 Garand shooters....even the oft quoted "This ammo is MADE for the M-1 Garand".....

So, being in the position of owning a SAAMI member laboratory, and having every means to run a thorough test....I did.

There are a LOT of nuances involved in ballistic testing. And honestly, if you REALLY want to challenge me on knowledge....bring your lunch. So, I'm not going to get into the "50,000 psi discussion". You quote that in an argument, and you clearly are an arm-chair Ballistician, without modern day knowledge. Study up.

Just a few Cliff notes, before I do the data-dump: I made a "blue pill" load, that approximated the current "Maximum Probable Sample Mean" for 30-06 Springfield SAAMI ammunition. This is the HIGHEST "production" pressure, as statistically suggested within SAAMI documentation for piezo transducer testing. That pressure (MPSM) is 63,800 psi. Note: Max Average Pressure (MAP) for 30-06 Springfield is listed at 60,000 psi Piezo...The intent of this portion of the exercise was to attempt to maximize PORT pressure, while keeping CHAMBER pressure within the realm of "safe limits". Surely, all would agree that IF chamber pressure were pushed FAR above "normal limits"....any damned fool could break a gun, in any number of places.

Back to the maximization of PORT pressures, just to drive the point home: The intent was to find ANY combination of projectile and propellant that would MAXIMIZE port pressure, while keeping inside "reasonably safe" SAAMI chamber pressures. Some would believe it would be "heavy bullet"....and some would believe it would be "slow powder". Well....I ran that experiment for days...turns out a little 130 grain bullet, with 70 (SEVENTY) grains of a fairly slow propellant DID maximize port pressure. Higher than any heavy bullet did....

A formal test barrel was fabricated by SATERN barrels, conforming to the min-spec dimensions of a 30-06 government test barrel chamber, bore cross-section, and port location from the muzzle. While not a "SAAMI" test barrel (but rather conforming to government drawings), it met the intent of the program. Using this test barrel, I created the "blue pill"....and tested ALL ammunition lots of both government and commercial 30-06 ammunition.

Surely some here will reference a group of gentlemen who DID instrument a true M-1 Garand with a piezo transducer TO THE GAS PORT CYLINDER of an M-1 Garand. And...they reported pressure results. Mmmmmyep. Good for them. I did that too. But I did not report those numbers, as there is NO standardized method or equipment to test/capture those numbers. Suffice it to say, that when taking into account PV=nRT, any VARIANCE IN VOLUME of the cylinder will drastically affect the recorded pressure output. Thus, the gas-port cylinder test is inherently flawed, when compared to standard industry methods. MY pressure output numbers utilized industry-standard methods, whereby the pressure is read DIRECTLY at the location of the port (as-per EPVAT modern day methodology), with no associated "free volume" to dampen the output results.

An M-1 Garand rifle was purchased from CMP, with both a "service" grade barrel, as well as a new Criterion barrel...several trigger groups, several op-rods...all with the intent to destroy this firearm by shooting the "blue pill" through it repeatedly.

Findings:

Folks have claimed (totally incorrectly) that heavy bullets....or slow powders....or SAAMI MAP pressures....will doom your M-1 Garand to certain destruction. Folks- I have passed my results to other SAAMI member laboratories, and major ammunition manufacturers. All of them have told me that they've never witnessed ANYONE ELSE, EVER test this system so exhaustively.

The "Blue Pill" load did NOT destroy any part of the M-1 Garand. I've fired in excess of 200 "Blue Pill" rounds through it (along with every other type of commercial and government ammunition), and there remains NO sign of fatigue, or of failure to feed/fire/extract. I have also fired hundreds of rounds of 200+ grain projectiles through this rifle. NO PROBLEM, if the load is kept to SAAMI pressures.

The M-1 Garand is a ROBUST firearm design, able to digest standard SAAMI modern-day ammunition, of any make, and any components, when loaded to SAAMI standard pressures.

I have long offered a bounty for a bent or broken op-rod. I NEED to examine one...but no-one has ever EVER claimed to have had one. The constraints: It must have bent or broken with a load that conforms to SAAMI chamber pressures. The op-rod must be of original non-altered condition (before it was bent). If a hand-load, I must be provided the reloading recipe.

Despite my better judgement, the attachment provides EVERYONE my raw data, proving the extent of the testing across the ocean of time, disparity of manufacturers, and methods of pressure generation. Everything herein is fired out of the pressure barrel, using modern day piezo electric transducers of industry standard, filtered low-pass Bessel active at 20kHz, the transducers and charge amps all calibrated with a dead-weight tested.

UPDATE #1
(From Ken)
Folks- PowderMonkey here again (Ken Johnson of Prospector Training, LLC). We found the attached results sheet containing more data than before. I attach it here, for historical perusal. Should anyone wish to use this information for commercial purposes, I ask (kindly) that they contribute to making me whole. I may be found on the internet, or in Crawfordville, FL.

Jeremy Cheek and I performed this testing at the laboratory. We utilized many of his M1 and M2 lots, dating all the way back to...1927! He freely donated this ammunition, so that others might be able to better understand the TRUTH of the M1 Garand, ammunition loaded and certified for the weapon (over many years), as well as modern day alternatives.

Link to raw data.

Thanks for all your data.

You'd think that they'd kill a myth, but we all know about myths... :)

Forrest
 

gunplumber

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Well, I've had to hammer bolts open twice from people who were shooting commercial hunting ammo in GI garands. Op rods bent. One I did at my mentor Phil Arrington's shop, when he lived down the street from me. I was afraid of damaging something, but he just told me to hit it harder and then showed me how to bend op rods into optimal alignment.

I understood that the reason for this was not the peak pressure, but the pressure curve being much sharper. And the cause was the different burn rate of some commercial propellant.

But I've seen enough BS in the FAL world to understand bad information, repeated often enough, becomes "consensus" until someone comes along and says "that's bullshit and here's why . . . "

Obviously two examples in my career is not statistically significant. Perhaps there was some other defect in the ammunition . .. .?

Unfortunately, all these years later, I have no idea what the specific ammo was, or the bullet weight, just that it was supposed to be store-bought name-brand and not someone's handloads. Which reinforced the assumption that some "SAAMI SPEC" hunting ammo was bad in a Garand.

Or at least that's what the customer told me. But then, customers sometimes lie out of embarrassment.

Oh well, I just got paid to fix them.
 
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ByronF

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I also hammered open a Garand at the range. And poured out the several pieces of what used to be an op rod spring.

Lots of people likely buy Garands with fagged springs then commence to doing what people to. No judgment, I found this site about 25 yr ago after the endorphins from my CMP M1 faded and I needed another fix. I believed every rumor because I was ignorant.
 

airground

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Oh well, I just got paid to fix them.
Good comments.

Something to consider re: hammering bolts open.

I've had to do it myself... Everytime it was a corroded/dirty/pitted chamber etc.

The bolt doesn't even begin to unlock untill the bullet is severely feet downrange and the excess pressure has "uncorked" and vented thru the muzzle.

The oprod hasn't even begun to move st this point and it's only held forward by spring pressure as it "floats " for 3/8" before trying to unlock the bolt.

No grease on the right bolt lug and oprod cam area is also a requirement otherwise the dry friction there is what usually tweaks oprods.
 

KoKodog

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so really .......... why tell average Joe that has no idea of the difference in the pressure curve and spike between M2 Ball equivalent and any old '06 ammo to go ahead and take a shot of bending his op rod ? Pressure is same, so good to go .......

there are way too many bent op rods and hammered open bolts to justify telling average Joe to blast away w/ anything you can get

oh well, as Ron White sez, "Ya can't fix stupid"
 

airground

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so really .......... why tell average Joe that has no idea of the difference in the pressure curve and spike between M2 Ball equivalent and any old '06 ammo to go
What is the actual difference in pressure between "M2 ball" and "any other '06?"

there are way too many bent op rods and hammered open bolts to justify telling average Joe to blast away w/ anything you can get
most oprod damage comes from improper lubrication and/or improper disassembly. If you have to hammer open a bolt there is something wrong with your chamber or your ammo has issues and is WAY beyond SAAMI spec.

oh well, as Ron White sez, "Ya can't fix stupid"
Says they guy who doesn't like science.
 

KoKodog

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no drama queen here, I just tell people to fuck themselves w/ a splintered un greased broomstick, besides the system is not supposed to show that they post even without any text
and as I stated before why tell average Joe that has no idea of the difference in the pressure curve and spike between M2 Ball equivalent and any old '06 ammo

telling average Joe that kind of stupid shit is just what brain dead assholes do

if you show the pressure curves and spikes on a graph the M2 ball is more sloped, the any old '06 is a straight spike
 
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brunop

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@KoKodog - One person here has put up the raw data from a SAAMI-member laboratory… and includes the outcomes from shooting “all that other ‘06” - as well as the high-pressure rounds and the mil-spec rounds. No damage from any - and all - of that abuse.

Another person is saying “F you - have you seen the ‘spikes’?!?!”

You’re free to put the guy on ignore - maybe you like the myth better than the data. Or, alternately, you could show us all the graphs you’re talking about - and actually refute the guy’s claim.

@airground - you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink.

No bans or violations for members who tell you to “F Off!” - you should consider the childish outbursts a badge of honor.

Your report will remain rejected.
 
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