HUEY...where are you?

[Cava3r4]

Have you ever built an ar15 PISTOL in 6.5 grendel?
if so, what were all the details?
and what kind of federal paperwork is there?

 

[W.E.G.]

I’m not Huey. But you can build all the PISTOLS you want without any paperwork.

Be sure to use PISTOL-Length gas system.

Should run fine with a standard (3.0 ounce) buffer and standard carbine spring.

Pistol-length gas is always hard on case rims . Use an extra the black dingus inside the extractor spring and an O-ring around the extractor spring.

 

[OLDMANPBK]

Is it still a rule that you can't turn a rifle into a pistol? I haven't kept up with the regulations.

 

[Cava3r4]

Thanks WEG, have you built one?

 

[NFADLR]

Was there a SCOTUS decision on 80% frames ?

If so you could build one from that start out as a pistol build and could at least go to rifle build if you want down the road.

 

[hueyville]

Have built AR pistols in 5.56, 22 Nosler, 6.8 spc II, 300 Hqm'r, 350 Legend and 458 SOCOM for sure. Have to dig through the" built two and did not like them so sold the bolts/barrels and built a good gun with the parts" folder as have at least eight to ten calibers have built and did not like. Have a 12.5" 375×6.8 barrel incoming (have a feeling this one my change from (wildcat) to (standard) caliber on the list. Not friendly on suppressors if use a 10.5" barrel or shorter but they are reported to work well with 11.5" and 12.5" with the 12.5" only losing 100 fps to a 16" because the 6.8 design just seems to love short barrels even when you wildcat them.

Have built two 6.5 Grendel rifles (16" and 20") back when they were the "newer kids" on the block and folks were swearing they would shoot the eye out of a varmint at ten miles. My main reason was to test against my pile of 6.8 spc IIs and if was going to have to swap a pile of them to 6.5 and compare to my 257×6.8s (those barrels left the market quickly but are hot rods if have one made) but broke the recommended bolt from barrel seller (their "in house" bolts) so bought two more of which broke one then when swapped them over to JP High Pressure Bolts they quit breaking, rifles ran fine but did not do anything a 6.8 spc II didn't do unless shooting past 650 to 800 yards where the 6.8 spc II begins to drop more quickly as reach its transonic limit but a 22" 3R 6.8 spc II barrel will give you hard hitting with accuracy out to the 750/800 yard range.

If looking for less drop the 224 Valkerie has 100 inches less drop at 1,000 yards than the 6.5 Grendel does. If spend the money to buy all premium parts then a 6.5 Grendel pistol might make sense but since 6.8 spc II shoots to within just a few inches more drop for the first 600 yards (call it 500 in 11.5" or shorter barrel) and compare the durability of the 6.8 bolt along with increased energy on target for the first 300 yards I still cannot bring myself to drink the 6.5 Grendel Kool-aid. If shooting off a bench at paper where you can reach in the range bag for your spare bolt and swap it out on the bench then have at it. For a defensive weapon I would rank 6.5 Grendel nearer the bottom of the list unless your planning on throwing a Superlative Arms short stroke piston drive kit paired with a dedicated Type-2 6.5 Grendel bolt.

Except for 5.56 if go up any more in energy for a pistol length gas system I build them on quality piston drive kits. Some Carbine length gas system guns if medium to heavy thumpers will still drop a piston length kit in it. Not looked up current laws but it has been can't build a pistol on a rifle registered lower receiver that I would stick with that. I still have close to 100 lower recievers maked "multi" so I will keep building pistols on those and any AR 15s bought as rifles on their 4473 will stay rifles.

If I were doing a pistol for self defense and it had to be 6.5 Grendel I would use a Lewis Machine & Tool MARS-L or Radian Weapons A-DAC 15 receiver, put the Superlative Arms short stroke piston drive kit paired with a dedicated Type-2 6.5 Grendel bolt and carry a spare piston which will fit in your pistol grip. Unless someone is paying me to build them an upper (and paying me to use the parts I am secure with) I will never build another 6.5 Grendel as too many other options that shoot as well or better and do not have weak bolt issues. When ATF was giving away "free" SBR stamps for AR pistols I submitted Form 1s to make six of my seven AR pistols into SBRs then slapped KAK micro milspec stock kits on six. This tiny 6.8 spc II is the only that did not get swapped to an SBR and it is a monster with or without a suppressor to people standing around but its actually pleasant to shoot and makes some energy.

If the six I converted to SBRs (giving away SBR stamps then the courts over ruling the AR pistol ban was a home run for me as $1,200 didn't have to pay for SBR registration was a good deal and they were pretty well beat in court before the amnesty registration period ended. Have built three pistols back using the nicer pistol braces I had so now have eight SBRs (registered two many years ago when I never thought the ATF would give them away), four pistols and about to build a few more pistols using cartridges that had not been released when the free registration was in play.

That will be fifteen short barrel ARs in mix of pistols and SBRs along with around seventy AR 15 rifles and not one in 6.5 Grendel. If you want the best of all have a 6.5×6.8 custom barrel spun on a nice blank and you can go all DI without any piston drive parts, no weak bolt issues and have the range of a 6.5 Grendel though when taken friends to my friends 400 yard range only two out of seven shot smaller groups closer to point of aim than my 6.8 spc IIs did. Its real easy to read "6.5 Grendel is a 1,000 yard capable caliber" and call any 6.5 a thousand yard gun but everything changes on the range. I am an average shooter again after the 3.5 years forced off the range due to medical issues but have put over 2,000 rounds of 22LR and 3,000+ rounds from 5.56 to 280 AI but mostly 6.8 spc II and 22 Nosler since spring and am getting that "muscle memory" back where not having to overthink my mechanics on top of the rifle.

 

[Cava3r4]

my intention was target work (practice). I'm too old and crippled to get into any matches. I can't even get in prone or sitting and it takes a half hour to get up from prone and I need a sofa to pull myself up. That and self defense albeit at home. (NOT rucking up and hitting the bush with 10,000 rounds etc etc....too old and tired for that chit)
I have a 6.5 grendel 20 inch rifle. I've been to the 65grendelDOTcom. EVERYBODY there apparently shoots groups that are LESS then a 1/2 inch.
Best I've been able to do is 13/16 and that is with VARGET which is not recommended as you can't get enough into the case to get 2400 or more FPS. Maybe I should just be happy with that and give it up. If I was younger and in better health I'd try the 6.8 that you like so much, but at my "station in life" I don't believe I have the time to invest into the dies and all the other paraphanalia to start another new caliber.
Having been in Vietnam in an armored cav outfit, I don't have all that much faith in the 223 for stopping power. My experience was that we had to dump 3 rounds into them to get them hurt enough to STOP shooting at us with their AK's. I was there for 1968 and Tet, Tet II, and Tet III in Aug 68. Heavy duty times. We were always in the chit. I sold my 308's (m1a's and FN/FAL's) due to health issues. That was the reason I "down shifted" to the 6.5 Grendel. I do have a spare Brownells bolt for the 6.5G.
Thanks for you input. I'm starting to see the light that the Grendel is just more KOOL AID. I started on this project in 2019 and KOHVHID scam slowed everything down, no availabilty (even though I have lots of reloading stuff in inventory) . I screwed around with over 30 different ladder loads, etc. Well, I have close to 2K rounds for it. SO when I shoot that up, I'll start looking at another upper. Maybe I should have went with the 6.5 Manbun.

 

[hueyville]

With 5.56 I would not shoot anyone just once (unless a good DNS head shot with lots of pink mist) and move on to have a wounded man with a gun pissed at me. One reason I like binary triggers so much especially when I bought most of mine before the Las Vegas concert shooting where binary triggers all jumped $100 in a week tjen two weeks later were $150 more plus a two to four week wait.

In the dirty south where most are wearing t-shirts eight months of the year, a fleece jacket 3 months and maybe a month of wearing an actual coat combined with the ammo I carry a 5.56 double tap is going to put 90% down. There are the 6' 7" 275 pound weight lifters all jacked up on steroids and testosterone but M855a1 is an entirely new military projectile, Mk 318 Mod0 and other 5.56 rounds are not your Vietnam era projectile. If I was running M193 everything would get shot three times before transitioned. Faster to tap that trigger another time while on target than come back to it when it crawls off the ground. I know a lot of Vietnam vets that will not carry 5.56 rifles or 9mm handguns. I never carried a 9mm (have an always growing collection of Hi Powers) for defensive use till about a decade ago when Hornady Critical Duty and 147 grain SIG V Crown (massive wound channel for a 9mm subsonic round) but still carry a 45 acp or 40 Smith the most. Like 40 Smith because it blows through NIJ 2 body armor which seems to be the most common on cops and secondary aka used market.

Nothing inherently wrong with the 6.5 Grendel that a few premium parts will not fix. If spending for the Superlative Piston Drive Kit is out of price range then a JP High Pressure Bolt with VSeven improved cam pin holding it to a milspec Full Auto Bolt Carrier and your odds of it failing due to bolt failure goes way down and a spare bolt and cam pin should be in the pistol grip of most defensive rifles just in case. As to the average group size over at about any forum these days shooter had to run ten groups to get two or three they will post photos of. I seldom post group photos as often will catch crap over everything from "how many groups did you fire to get that one", "fine job of Photoshop work", etc so recently found an ancient Go Pro camera and $19 tripod and this fall (doc did not tell me 100% truth on recovery from my $15,000 hand procedure to fix Dupytrens Syndrome in left hand but sure I will be happy when the six months of no recoil on left hand compared to "can return to normal activities in about eight weeks.

We know what you have now, a 20" 6.5 that for a wore out older gentleman who probably beat himself to death getting old can still hold groups under an inch. That is a start. I would buy a 13.7" barrel put a Superlative Arms gas blow by adjustable gas block and add a pinned flash hider/supressor mount to make 16.1" from bolt face to end of muzzle saving you over six inches in OAL. Get the high pressure bolt and improved cam pin to run in both uppers and put the bolt/cam pin already have in your pistol grip so if bolt breaks (the JP will take a lot of rounds before you need to worry) then just do a quick field repair. Swap uppers as the mood strikes, you will be surprised when you shorten the front of your rifle 6.5" and stay over the 16" limit then keep it stored with stock collapsed or half collapsed. I actually practice with stocks collapsed as you never know when getting gun in firing position and sending a round is all you have time for and cannot mess with length adjustments.

When you assembled that rifle did you square the upper receiver? Did you bed the barrel in the upper receiver and what ft/lbs of torque did you apply to the barrel nut? It amazes rifles owners and sometimes me when they drop by with their upper and we take apart. Use just the parts they had but I square the upper, check the crown (sometimes touching it up) while have muzzle device off, put it all back together using my preferred bedding compound, torque barrel nut in the 40 to 50 ft/lbs range (where it feels happy and all lines up correctly) then finish assembly and tell them to give the bedding compound a full 24 hours to set.

Get calls or them stopping at house on way home from the range to show me their group size shrank 1/2" or more. Square the upper, bed the barrel and properly torque barrel nut along with muzzle device (fiddling at range have seen a rifle open or close group size by 1/4" just removing then installing to manufacturers reccomended. Over half the uppers people bring me admit they assembled without a torque wrench and many say entire rifle was built using a $19 armorers wrench. Send them to their vehicle with a torque wrench and castle nut adapter while they are here and most are off so much have to get a big wrench to remove castle nut and some that lossen with fingers. Get it all square, plumb and torqued to spec and it can change a rifle significantly. I have two sub MOA AR 15s built from parts people left when had a better barrel installed as fhat first one they ordered just never shot well. Usually turns out the LGS squared the upper and torqued the new barrel which the owner who built it first time did neither. I will take those barrels home and majority make good rifles and can only assume they had been improperly installed to shoot as bad as owner claimed. Then there are the large numbers of unlevel scopes fixed during a two hour "pit stop" as well.

I have never dissassembled and reassembled any AR 15 or AR 10 upper owner did not say it shot measurably better. Have taken in rifles that only fired half the time the trigger was pulled and shooting 4" or larger groups that left 100% and shooting sub MOA. See trigger springs installed improperly, hammer/sear engagement only touching across 30% of surface, disconnectors wonky and more. Had one guy come in LGS with a OEM rifle purchased at another LGS, when got it home and unboxed (I do that in the store) he had trigger pull that varied from 7.1 to 8.25 pounds pull on our gauge. Other store said he did something to screw it up and sent him away. I had nothing to do so put it on the hammer and sear jig to see multiple engagement points improperly fit so squared them all, one of the trigger pins was bent. Not enough if played with it and how it was clocked didn't go in but as played with it trigger pull still walked. Put in a new set of trigger pins, a JP 3.5 Lb Enhanced Spring Kit, properly lubed and his 6.75 to 8.25 trigger went to a dead flat 3.50 pound pull with consistent take-up/creep and super clean break. It's owner thought it was the greatest trigger he had ever used and when asked how much had the manager ring him out $7.99 for the spring kit (as priced on package) plus $1.95 for the pins (not the bulk pack by 100 count but marked "premium trigger pins" in a two pack) plus sales tax. Guy asked about labor and told him A: we do not charge labor to install parts bought in store plus B: I was just hanging around so no employees spent company time so labor on the "trigger job" was free.

The guy must have known 1,000 people with crappy triggers and whenever asked online everyone recommended a $200 custom trigger for their $399 AR 15. Owner did not have time to fool with them or keep up with all the odd parts some triggers needed so they would have someone come in wanting a trigger, we would arrange a time on Saturday and for almost a year I spent the majority of two Saturdays per month doing $49.99 trigger jobs. My only parts cost was $6.50 for the JP spring kits at the time so at end of day owner paid me $37 per trigger (unless we had eight booked we moved it to next weekend) and most days did a dozen at least as set up my own little work bench out on the main floor, not in back where they did wrenching and always had one to four or five say "running home real quick, do no leave till I get back". Had some days would turn out two dozen $49.99 trigger jobs. I made $30 each, owner made $10 each for me to sit between guns and archery.

We kept booked two Saturdays per week over a year then LGS owner found a drop in he could sell for $49.99 where he was making $20 on the part and charging $10 to install as always could find someone even if it was me to drop them in. He used me for a lot of labor as we had a rough price guide, kept a list and instead of getting paid took my money in store credit. I even built entire rifles doing the uppers at my shop then assembling the lowers and mating them in his shop. For myself, family, friends and such bet I have built over 300 ARs not counting the ones had to tear apart then reassemble. At one time I was getting two to five "problem" uppers in the mail per week. Goal is by winter let the word out am back to troubleshooting problem uppers and building customs. Did build one just before hand surgery as buyer could not even get a barrel in the pistol caliber he wanted and was baffled on building a blow back versus a DI. Entire point of retiring was to shoot and build guns. I have probably a years work just to assemble FAL, G3, G21, CETME kits, 1911s and 2011s plus custom ARs, Mini 14s,10-22s and others. The 3.5 years was in bed was buying more kits and parts than if I was working as had nothing to do but search out gun stuff to buy.

 

[Real McCoy]

My intention was a pistol (not SBR) with brace. While louder than my 18" with A2, that AR15 pistol nails the bullseye with Romeo5 RDS at 100 yards, if the one aiming does their part. Parts: Aero Precision M4E1 lower assembled at home with Aero complete upper 5.56/ 12.5 inch, and LaRue curved trigger FCG.

 

[aron82]

I have 2 6.5 grendel ars. One in 16" the other in 20".
These 2 were almost no expense spared ar builds. Odin works barrels and bolts, fancy drop in triggers, jp captured recoil springs, ect.
Thought about adding a pistol length 12.6" is the common length. Looking at the ballistics and you really need 20" to get the most out of the grendel. The 16" is a compromise. I personally think the 11 or 12" is just too much.
It's going to have a lot of fireball- concussion unless suppressed.
Were you planning on loading subsonic for it?
I'm sure you are looking at the 6.5 because you don't want to add another caliber to stock and reload for.
For pistol length ars, 300bo is the answer.

Top is 20"dmr. Middle is 16"
Bottom is 10.5" 300bo.

 

[01BIRDDOG]

I have 2 6.5 grendel ars. One in 16" the other in 20".
These 2 were almost no expense spared ar builds. Odin works barrels and bolts, fancy drop in triggers, jp captured recoil springs, ect.
Thought about adding a pistol length 12.6" is the common length. Looking at the ballistics and you really need 20" to get the most out of the grendel. The 16" is a compromise. I personally think the 11 or 12" is just too much.
It's going to have a lot of fireball- concussion unless suppressed.
Were you planning on loading subsonic for it?
I'm sure you are looking at the 6.5 because you don't want to add another caliber to stock and reload for.
For pistol length ars, 300bo is the answer.
View attachment 690326
Top is 20"dmr. Middle is 16"
Bottom is 10.5" 300bo.

What are you shooting in you 300B.O. to get most advantage of your suppressor? Thanks

 

[aron82]

I roll my own 220gr Hornaday ballistic tips over cfe blk for powder. Tried some h110, but wasn't as consistent as the cfe blk.
For supers, im running mostly Hornaday 120gr factory loads.
The subs are stupid quiet, but obviously slow and down on power, shock factor from the supers. For varmints they work great.